Before the Referendum

Interview with the President

Publisher and Managing Editor Defence Journal IKRAM SEHGAL interviewed the General Pervez Musharraf at COAS House for ARY DIGITAL TV in Urdu. This interview was re-telecast by PTV and many other foreign channels. With thanks to ARY DIGITAL TV we are re-producing the transcript in English.

Ladies and Gentlemen: We are privileged today in ARY to have with us the President of Pakistan. In this next hour or so, we are going to take you over right from the day he took over the reins of this country and we are going to discuss with him his agenda points and his vision for the present and for the future. Thank you, Mr President.

I take you back to your Oct 1999 speech when you said that Pakistan was hanging on its destinal axis and it was upto us to make or break its destiny. At that time you gave some agenda points. The most preferred, by you, was the national morale. What do you think, to what extent, you have succeeded in achieving this agenda point?

In my own view, I am successful to a great extent. A nation has become alive. There is a wave of emotions and enthusiasm. People have started feeling that Pakistan is not a failed state. We have the capability and potential to move ahead successfully.

Today, we have much better image in the foreign world. Many people have told me “we feel proud of being Pakistanis”. People are now inspired and they have the will and vigour to move ahead. Insha Allah, we will keep moving forward.

When you took over the government, you were utterly disappointed and you had said “I don’t see any light”. Do you now see any light?

Oh! Yes, certainly. Actually at that time there were numerous problems and I was not used to facing such like problems. So, there was despondency. Now that I have handled and tackled the situations, I am quite encouraged to find that we have very rich potential at our disposal to move ahead with a good speed. The way I have handled the situations and seen the results on ground, I am very much convinced that light is there.

Sir, at the time of takeover, you had shown concern over provincial disharmony. You had also accorded second priority to this point of your agenda. You have made headway in this respect also. Would you say something about the provincial harmony?

Yes. In my view, the level of national harmony has enhanced much today. The smaller provinces, had always grievances against centre. They always suffered from a sense of deprivation but they are now very happy because they understand that they are being given their due share. Since there is more backwardness, therefore, we are giving them more than their right. We are also thinking of bringing some constitutional amendments to institutionalize these reforms, but certainly there is a great positive change and betterment.

Sir, the whole world knows that Kalabagh Dam is an indispensable requirement for Pakistan, but in spite of that you have taken very pragmatic decision about Kalabagh Dam and sharing of water. Would you like to comment on this?

Thank you very much, Ikram. You have asked me a good question, which is an important issue also. I am talking about water issue and irrigation throughout the country, particularly in Sindh. Sindh is the worst hit land by the shortage of water. As far as, Kalabagh Dam is concerned, it is very much there and its plan has not been abandoned at all. However, it has to be completed with the consensus of all the four provinces. It is not advisable to go ahead with a divided opinion. First of all we have to bring national harmony and then go ahead. We must convince all the provinces that decision-making is consequent to some solid and transparent principle and only then we can mould their opinion. In this regard I keep talking to people from all walks of life and I intend addressing the press also.

The basic fact is that water is a problem and we have to resolve it. To me the water problem can be solved by correct use and functioning of canal system and secondly, creation of more water storage capacity. To put the canal system right, we have already prepared the plans, but the question is, from where we will get the water to flow in these canals. For that we have to create the water storage resources. To fulfil this need, I had ordered a feasibility plan for “Bhasha Dam” at least, a year and a half ago. May Allah grant a thousand years to Pakistan but if we just look ahead for thirty-forty years, Pakistan needs three, four dams. Silting is a continuous process, which keeps occurring and reducing the quantity of water, therefore, building of dams should also be a continuous process. It is a different question, which dam is built earlier and which is built later, but ultimately, we have to build all the dams. I have talked a lot about this in Sindh and they have understood it to a great extent. However, a little more understanding is needed. In Punjab also people keep beating the drum of Kalabagh Dam. Since long their minds are stuck onto Kalabagh Dam only. Kalabagh Dam issue is hot, roughly, for the last fifteen years. If we had thought of an alternative at that time, the Bhasha Dam would have been ready by now. I don’t know why we are bent upon going for Kalabagh Dam only. My humble thinking is that we must have two three alternatives also. If we succeed in seeking the consensus of Sindh and NWFP then we will go ahead for Kalabagh, otherwise we will have the Bhasha Dam as an alternative. That is what our strategy is. Punjab as well as Sindh must understand this problem.

Sir, Economy is another most important factor in our stability. It has improved and foreign reserves have also been built up. Your comments please?

Yes. By the grace of God, our foreign reserves have reached nearly five and a half billion dollars. Our privatization process is also gearing up which will further contribute towards foreign reserves. These indicators have also revived confidence of foreign investors. Obviously no investor will invest his money, unless he feels secure.

The state of foreign reserves of a country is an indicator of security for the investor. I think, our achievement to raise the foreign reserves has created a better investment atmosphere. Another impression has been washed away that Pakistan is a failed state. People now know that it is a smoothly running state. I am sorry to say that many people are commenting on this achievement in many different ways. They are explaining the reasons for increase in the foreign reserves, thereby creating an impression that we have not done much well, it is written on the wall, that we have done it. If it was so easy, why they did not do it. They could have also used the same sources which we have used.

Sir, if we look at economic situation you have resorted to continuous de-regulation, which is in step with globalization. Of course, it has given confidence to the investor also. These are very tangible steps and very far reaching as well, but these steps do not produce immediate results, which is affecting your image. What do you say about this?

Back in 1999, we had extracted four areas of focus out of our seven point agenda. Economic revival was the first and good governance was accorded second priority. Obviously, if governance is not good, how can you revive your economy? Third was poverty alleviation, which is again dependent on economy. Finally, we had decided to focus on political restructuring. Now economic revival is at the base.

We gave a serious thought to revival of economy. Ultimately we reached a conclusion that there are four areas which will help economic revival. We, first addressed the question to know the areas of poverty. We found that our rural areas were the worst hit. What should be done to alleviate poverty from the rural areas, we thought? The answer was found in promoting agriculture. That is why we are emphasizing so much on agriculture. This is the only field which will economically help our common man. We then thought about the urban areas, where a large number of unemployed youth is roaming around. We found its solution, in introduction and promotion of information technology. The third type of unemployed people comprise illiterates. To accommodate this lot we planned to install small and medium level enterprises. We thought that growth of small and medium size Industries will provide job to these illiterates and simultaneously contribute towards revival of economy. Our fourth area of focus was oil and gas.

Once we had marked the areas of focus, we then resorted to indepth study of each area to reach solid deductions. First of all we started analyzing the agriculture problem. We reached many conclusions, to include 1) improvement in existing irrigation system 2) creation of new sources for storage of water, 3) improvement of existing canal system 4) having new canals with the passage of time and finally making the land reclamation projects effective. At present, all our projects are directed to achieve the same target.

Coming to information technology we have set up seven IT Universities in a year and a half. On the other hand we have expanded the bandwidth, and simultaneously brought its cost down i.e. from 86 thousand dollars to only 6 thousand dollars. We have established a complete net of fibre optics. At present roughly 50,000 students are qualifying in software every year, whereas, this figure was limited only upto six or seven thousand, prior to our reforms. It will definitely improve the foreign exchange reserves also. This is an achievement.

We are doing a lot in the field of oil and gas. We are especially focussing on coal and gas.

Finally, establishment of new factories require investment. We have not been able to achieve glaring success in this area. We have achieved our aim to the extent of 20-25%, but we certainly need to strive hard in this area, which we are doing. We have created an organization by the name of CIRC for the revival of dead industries. With the efforts of CIRC, 190 dead factories have been revived, which is creating job opportunities for many people. CIRC took over all these dead factories and out of 190, about 140 or 150 have been returned to original owners and 37 or 38 have been sold to the other people. The owners, who have revived their own factories have been granted many concessions in their payable taxes and debts. It has helped the economy and provided jobs to many people.

At macro-level, government does have a role to play, i.e. keeping the fiscal deficit under control and a balance between income and expenditure. We have controlled deficit and inflation and we have managed to increase remittances and export also. The unfortunate incident of 11 September came as an odd en route, otherwise no government has crossed the limit of 9 billion dollars export. It is our government, which has achieved this level. In fact, our target was to cross the limit of 10 billion dollars, but as I said, we suffered due to 11 September incident. Also focus of all our development projects is on economic revival and poverty alleviation. This is our strategy.

Ever since,  you have introduced the present system i.e. devolution of power, what is your perception about law and order situation?

I will be very frank to say that we do not claim great success in this field. It is a very important question and everyone is concerned about it. Every second person demonstrates his concern about law and order but when I ask them about any suggestions they usually have nothing to say.

We know about it and we have carried out indepth analysis of this problem. One way is to resort to cosmetics, which has always been happening here. If an untoward incident takes place, you suspend the SHO and transfer the SP which is considered to be good enough action to improve law and order situation. In true sense, such like actions do not bring any improvement at all. Let me tell you that many discussions and debates have been held on this subject in which very high ranking people have been participating. I have myself attended many conferences. The question is what should we do? Now let me tell you about the plan to improve the law and order situation. It comprises four components.

Pre-emption. Any potential untoward incident should be pre-empted before its happening. This is the job of intelligence organizations. They must penetrate in the networks of terrorist organizations and pass on the information well before time to appropriate authorities. To perform this job they need equipment. We are equipping them. We are also establishing an anti-terrorist organization, which will operate throughout the length and width of the country. This organization will comprise skilled, trained and well equipped people having appropriate expertise. This has been decided. Hopefully, they will deliver the goods.

Prevention. Who can undertake this duty! Pakistan Army, Rangers or Police. Well! There is no fourth outfit. By the grace of God, army is already well-equipped and welltrained. We are also equipping Rangers but Police is the first line force for this purpose. Our whole success lies in Police. If two policemen stand in front of a church or  a mosque how can someone resort to killing, but they have to be well-equipped and well-trained. We are on it. We are spending lot of money to improve the Police services. First of all, we have to improve their quality. We are going to recruit thousands of people in Police from all the four provinces. Their recruitment will be strictly on merit. Nobody will be recruited through bribery. We will have top class boys who will be imparted effective training. Their training syllabus and courses etc have already been designed. We are very good at abusing the police people but we do not see how ill-equipped they are. They do not have even a cycle. Then what do we expect from them. We are going to provide them accommodation, transport and communication.

Investigation. The next step is investigation. If an incident occurs, nobody knows who has done that. Today there is so much technological advancement in this field which can make this job much easier. Investigation is a special field. We have now reorganized the Police by keeping watch and ward, investigation and prosecution as separate outfits. We are getting training facilities and other assistance also. We are going to establish forensic laboratories in all the four provinces. Last part of law and order is the judicial process. We need improvement in this field also. Chief Justice and Police Department, both are working on this project to ensure speedy trial, concrete justice and appropriate punishment to the culprits.

I have answered this question in detail because it is really an important question. In the end, I would say that law and order situation will only improve if Pre-emption, Prevention, Investigation and Prosecution improves. We are very good at criticism but we are very miser in giving credit. Even at present, there is marked improvement in the performance of police. I went to Jacobabad and Sukkur. At both these places the Nazims publicly appreciated the performance of Police. The Nazim of Sukkur admitted that Police had killed many dacoits and policemen were also killed. Now a joint Police operation against dacoits is on the way which will be conducted by Sindh and Balochistan police. We are only guiding and supporting them. It is also important to uplift their respect and prestige. I will request the nation to observe patience, because 50 years old chronic diseases cannot be treated overnight.

An important question: In your 1999 address, you had mentioned that politicizing of state institutions has ruined them. You desired to de-politicize the state institutions. What is the progress?

This nuisance had started in 70s, when lateral entries were made, government service was ruined, and democracy was demolished. After that twelve years have seen every government resorting to gain cheap popularity. They would tell organizations like PIA, Steel Mill and Police etc to induct thousands of people. If you think that poverty can be alleviated by employing 3,000 or 4,000 people then I am prepared to employee 8,000 people. Irrespective of Benazir or Nawaz Sharif they all employed useless, incompetent and worthless lot in the government jobs. It damaged the nation in two ways. Firstly the state institutions were overstaffed and secondly they became a great burden on the national exchequer. Ikram to quote you an example, when I went to Egypt, I saw their Steel Mill. It was the same Steel Mill which we have. To my shock and horror their production was double and their employees were half than us. It is the politicizing which has destroyed PIA, Steel Mill and Railways etc. We are now trying to weed out the inefficient, right size the organization and induct efficient people. We have also stopped any kind of direct induction. Any vacancy of grade 11 and above will be filled through Public Service Commission, even ASI will be recruited through Public Service Commission. In our 2 1/2 years stay, no induction has been done. All employment have been given on merit. Some people are writing in the newspapers that we are keeping people on contract. Yes, it has been done, but only where there is a real need e.g. Ministry of Science and Technology.

How do you visualize that your favourite “Devolution of Power” will succeed?

I am very happy that this system is catching roots. There are many problems also, which we are trying to solve. The biggest thing about this system is that local government has been given political, administrative and financial power. They do not have to beg from anyone. This system will also eliminate corruption. For human development, particularly for education and health, billions of dollars have been received and yet our education has been destroyed. Where did this money go? Actually the decision-makers were politicians and bureaucrats who used this money. Now the money will trickle down to people who will utilize it according to their justified needs. Hence, corruption will cease and real development will take place. Wherever I go I see people coming with countless applications. Once the local government system develops their Nazim will be able to solve their problems. I went to a place where people wanted a park to be built. I said, “it is not my responsibility. It is responsibility of your Nazim. Next time I come, I will ask the Nazim”.

We have also granted 33% seats to women and representation of “Kissans and Mazdoors” has also been taken care of. All these people will now sit in a decision-making body. I have been told by the World Bank, that there is a silent revolution.

In the past, people were not even aware of human rights. Comparatively the situation has changed. Would you like to say something about this?

Yes: You have said it. But still people have complaints against police, at lower level. However, the situation is now much better, because Nazim is there to look into such like matters. People do not know the intensity of power which has been placed at their disposal. Once they know and learn to use it no one would even think of being unjust to anyone. I am very happy that very well educated and well polished Nazims are coming forward.

You have changed the political landscape of Pakistan. Now the politicians are sitting elsewhere and Nazim are in the chair. We call them your rainbow coalition?

Yes: Here I have some apprehensions also. I am afraid that they may not develop a conflict. They should work in total harmony with each other. Previously, the politicians used to sit in the assembly and rule their respective areas also. They used to get crores of rupees and spent this money according to their wishes. Now the system has been changed and their role has been re-defined. I only wish that they would work in harmony with each other. Now the government will be running at three levels i.e. national level, provincial level and district level. So, there should be no confrontation and unhealthy competition among them. They all must understand their rights and responsibilities so that good governance prevails.

You have repeatedly talked about accountability. Do you think, with devolution of power there will be accountability at gross root level also?

As you said earlier, we will establish institutions and systems which will bring harmony, accountability, efficiency and development.

Russian Revolution, Chinese Revolution, Iranian Revolution, Cuban Revolution and many other — every time corruption — they had only one answer. Put him against the wall and shoot him. You have not done that. You have made a judicial process. Why?

Many people are speaking against the NAB saying that the process is very slow, many culprits have not been hauled up but I will say that we have done what has not been done in the last 50 years. Has ever some big gun been caught? You were in the army, when Martial Law was imposed. I was in HQ DMLA. I do not remember that any big fish was lashed. I told Gen Shah Rafi Alam that all poor were being lashed which was absolutely unfair. But in the process of accountability, we have not got hold of any poor man. We have started from the upper level and I have instructed them not to bother any poor man. If a person cannot even fill his stomach the government has got no right to take him to task. According to the teachings of Islam, it is prime responsibility of the state to provide bread and butter to everyone and then hold them accountable. As far as the slow process is concerned, we need more courts because it is not martial law, a proper judicial system is functional. I have been ordered by the Supreme Court against establishment of military courts. Let me have the military courts and you will find the disposal within three days. Actually our system in vogue is slow. We have to improve it to make it fast. Another dimension of their problem is that there are two main elements to include information and evidence. Information is in abundance, but there is no evidence. In spite of this problem, corruption of billions has been eliminated. Yes! corruption at lower level still continues. At least, fear of God is now being felt.

If the next government gets hold of NAB, they will definitely use it against their opponents. What is the solution to this?

No! We will not let it happen. We will incorporate some constitutional amendments and certain other measures will be adopted to ensure that NAB does not fall prey to anyone. Its head will be a man above board and it will perform its tasks independently.

It is first army regime which has allowed free press and free media?

Yes! It is absolutely free press. Ikram! I am very happy that you are saying so, being from the media. At the time of take over, a corps commanders conference was held in which we discussed it for over 6 hours to decide, whether martial law should be imposed or not. You know that whenever martial law is imposed, we have CMLA, DMLA, SMLA and military courts and then the job starts. I did not desire so. I wanted to improve the system. If we suppress the system then there will be no change. I am of the opinion that press should be free but it must play a positive role. I always say that national interest may always be kept supreme. Whenever national interest is compromised I feel deeply hurt. I feel that since we have given freedom to press, if they are guided and trained also, then slowly and steadily, maturity will develop.

In addition to economic revival and national morale etc what about the foreign policy?

Before 11 September, they observed the performance of our government and they thought that it was a democratic government. They saw the independence of judiciary and independence of press. There was a marked change in their attitude. Then came the 11 September, which brought more changes. But it is wrong to say that everything happened after 11 September.

Two years back, there was a loud-talk about Kashmir, followed by Agra Negotiations, which really globalized the Kashmir issue. Today, after almost 10 months India has not been able to overcome that shock. Would you like to tell us something about it?

The Kashmir problem had become prominent due to Mujahidin, followed by Agra negotiations. I will give credit for this to Indian leadership, for inviting me to India. I have already given credit to Mr Atal Bihari Vajpayee and today I again give him credit. In fact, their public opinion and media think alike and the government thinks totally different. The Indian people, accept the Kashmir as a disputed territory and endorse its peaceful settlement, but their leadership does not think so. When I went to India, I found their people quite enthusiastic for this change. Same was the attitude of their media. Their ex-premieres, ex-foreign secretaries, ex-foreign ministries and known businessmen, were present at the occasion and all of them were accepting Kashmir as dispute between India and Pakistan. All of them were desirous of solving this dispute peacefully. When the difference of opinion between Indian people including Indian Media and Indian Government surfaced, then what happened you know it.

Sir, why did you adopt the course of Referendum? I think I was the last person to meet you before the Referendum. Who had suggested you, not to go for Referendum but you upkept your decision and convinced me also. What was at back of your mind, while taking this decision?

Thank you very much: I respect your opinion. This is a very important question that why am I adopting a difficult approach? You know that October elections are approaching and after that there will be an assembly, a parliament, ministers and prime minister. Political activities are going on. I am observing it for the last many months that they are using all possible methods against us but we are sitting quiet. These people and their (I call them chamchay), supporters are busy in their job. Crores of rupees are pouring in and masses are being misled. Efforts are being made to create instability in the country and destabilize me also. There are many people who change their loyalties with time, many people are power hungry and many side by the corrupts for their own benefits. They do not have any such hope from us. We analyzed this whole situation. We visualized that if the power thirsty or those opposed to our reforms, come into assembly, what will happen? A conflict will develop among President, Prime Minister, Cabinet or Assembly. In this situation, who will be at loss? Definitely democracy. Many people told me that if article 58-2 (B) of the constitution is restored, it will enable the President to dissolve assemblies. I want to tell them that it is never good to dissolve assemblies. Although it would be a legal act but it will never be good for democracy. It has to be ensured that the reforms are kept going. We carried out deliberate, lengthy and intense discussions to find a way out to ensure continuity of reforms. We reached a conclusion that there was only one way open to us. People tell me that I am very popular. I thought if I am really popular I must go to the people. I was convinced that if my reforms were reversed, then what would be the use of my popularity. If the strongest power, the people of Pakistan will endorse my reforms, then nobody will be able to erode  them away. If I am popular then they should endorse their popularity by voting for me. That is the only way to ensure that the reforms introduced by me are not set aside. I am a believer of the fact that constitution is for the people and people are not for the constitution. I do not want concentration of power in my hands. I want harmony among President, Prime Minister, Assembly and Cabinet.

Battalion Junior Under Officer, Pervez Musharraf held the national flag in real terms. Today also we are seeing the flag hoisting in his hands?

Yes. 38 years earlier, the flag was in my hands, at the time of passing out and today also, the situation is the same. I remember, that I had to hold the national flag for over two hours in the same position. My arm became almost numb. I have forgotten the exact drill but I remember  I was afraid that I may drop the flag. But I did not drop the flag then  and Insha Allah I will not drop it now also. Yes (pause) I will not drop it.

At the end, would you like to give a short and crisp message to the nation?

I will only say to the people of Pakistan to think about the Pakistan of 2 1/2 years  earlier and Pakistan of today. Whatever decision they make on 30th April, it should be based only on truthfulness, reality and for better future of Pakistan.

Ikram Sehgal: Thank you very much Sir.

President: Thank you.